WR3CK DIR: ITT Goodfellas kinda get it

[Shadoo]

Оriginally Postеd by WR3CK - Nathul link=topic=2969.msg19868#msg19868 date=1225218440

I was dragged up to a horrible meeting which went on for far to long but here is what it was about.

It is widly known that if bob faill or pull back to delve we are in major touble due to our limited cap fleet.
So a plan has been organised that as of next month all of the dyspro/prom that a corp has collected be brought to jita and sold. Then the isk will be sent to endeva ( or whoever he has ask to sort this).

They will get a full list of all corp sov holding pos's ‚ do the math and send the corp the isk that is needed to cover the fueling of all of these pos.

I think the cost was calculated at 12 bil to fuel all the towers we have for 1 month (alliance wide).
The high end moons at current jita price that all alliance corps have is worth 87 bil a month.

So the other 75bil will be used to buy dreads/carrier for alliance.

How this will work?
Right the way it was said was like this... lets say wreck has 10 dreads, Endeva will buy all of these dreads from the corp at full price. So lets say 1.5bil a dread, This puts wreck wallet at 15bil.

Now he will re sell these dreads to members for 500mil . So basicly this will give a poor pilot a chance to fly a dread for much cheaper, Also (and this has to clarified) the cost will then cover themselfs so the next time this same pilot needs a dread he will have to pay even less.. It means that instead of a guy shelling out 1.5-1.8bil for a dread he will get it at less than the basic insurance payout. Hense making it not so hard to lose for the guy and thus reducing the fear of flying it.
This is all a plan to try to make us able to defend ourselfs alot better and also to have that 50 dread crunch factor that is needed to hold your own in eve right now.

For the 2nd month he was thinking to do something like this then.. Send the isk again for fuel that is needed for the sov holding towers, And also buy the towers back from corps. So if wreck has 20 towers endeva will send wreck what it cost us for the towers. Further increasing our wallet.
There will be plenty of isk left over after doing this so anything after this is still open for debate. Be it buying moms.. or a titan.. or a bs program, whatever.

I hope you can all understand that..

Now the reasons for this.
Its as simple as this, alone a corp cannot replace caps and buy new ones on such a limited budget as we have atm, while also buying new towers and fueling the ones we already have up. But if you pitch all the isk together this way it really means we can spend big and make a huge investment as a whole allaince.

Now i think this looks really good since we are not really growing as a corp either atm this could help us grow and cost us nothing. And in fact it will actualy Boost our wallet considerably and Give more and more ppl the kick in the arse they need to get their dread skills up.

Anyway sorry for what is probably a shit write up but best i can do.

Can we post views and comments and lets see if we will agree to this.

ps: Please dont point out the obvious that it is alot of isk for 1 person to control because this is obvious and nothing you can do about it.

Оriginally Postеd by WR3CK - Loki Elis link=topic=2969.msg19870#msg19870 date=1225219418

Are they buying just the corp dreads or personal dreads as well?? i.e. are they just going to give people that have already shelled out for these caps some kind of hand out or is it just the people have trained the skills but couldn't be bothered to actually buy the ship?? I would have thought getting the corps dreads and not the members would have been better idea..


*edit...nice write up by the way Nathul*

Originally Posted by WR3CK - Master Hybride link=topic=2969.msg19873#msg19873 date=1225220265

Plan sounds prety good but you can't just start giving out dreads for 500mil a pop. People will just go and resell or leroy them at every opertunity.

And it's gonna be a bitch for the big kahoona to keep track of it all.
It might be better to just sell the caps to the individual corps at there request.

So if sacul has 10 members inline for cheap dreads he can ask for them to the big kahoona. Wreck can pay for those dreads in advance or when they were actualy sold to a member. This way every corp can keep track of the cap ships. The other good part is that not just every son of a mom gets one.

Earn it and get one!


* We will need to keep atleast one high end moon to keep our other bussines going. Like J-OK area.

** 500mil is to cheap‚ make it like 50% (750mil)

Оriginally Postеd by Wreck- Trevortampa link=topic=2969.msg19874#msg19874 date=1225220865

yes i would be with mh on this one 500mil is to cheap an the corps should buy the dreads from corp for the people that can fly them an keep them as corps or if someone wants to buy one then they can

Originally Posted by WR3CK - Arcane Mystery link=topic=2969.msg19875#msg19875 date=1225220972

I don't like this idea at all. It's better to simply divide the high end moons based on the expenses each corp has for sov holding towers‚ jump bridge networks etc plus maybe a factor for corp size, then let the individual corps handle the surplus income from moons on their own to run corp programs for capitals and BS. A system like the proposed one is to open for abuse and will without a doubt lead to mistrust and bitching.

If alliance leadership want to control all the income from the mining moons, then they can also handle the rest of things that come with it: set up, fuel and maintain them all including sov holding towers, jump bridge networks etc. If they don't trust the individual corps to handle the isk in a good way then they shouldn't put the work out on the corps either. In short, if Endeva wants to control all the money, then he can also do all the work for it.

Оriginally Postеd by Wreck- Trevortampa link=topic=2969.msg19876#msg19876 date=1225221857

what if we keep it the same way as it has ben but the alliance tells the corp they need to buy this amount of caps for there corp a month

an if they dont they lose the high end moons to someother corp thats going to use the isk towards caps

Originally Posted by CEO-Sacul link=topic=2969.msg19878#msg19878 date=1225226676

In a fever haze i heared this plan before and decided to go suicide in o-em (yay for DD).

Endeva is trying to invent a new way to maximize the aliance income for one simple reason.

Talk is cheap!

Corporations who are not pulling their weight promise to do better‚ they have hi end moons from the start and were active in conquering but now they do jack shit and the only way to get them of their moons is to shoot them. ОhNoеs civil war. Sorry deva we will do better next month TALK is CHEAP!....2 months dysprosium and 7 ppl of that corp online. We lose caps they refuse to chip in. See the current problem?

I do believe endeva is on the level here and i do trust him‚ biggest proof is his corp was last inline to get hi end moons.

Оbvious flaw is offcoursе you turn a alliance (semi-) communist over night and besides the ideological problems it is indeed allot of work to administrate all this. And fuck me if i am the one unanchoring and anchoring all them shit towers again.

As a way to progress the alliance its radical to say the least.

Attleast Endeva is trying so try and be constructive and not go into a knee jerk reaction pls.

p.s. relevant:
#Cap cost 1.2-1.3 bill to replace not 1.5 at cost.
#He miscalculates the Deklein income imo. Not factoring in jump fuel and bridge network pos that dont make isk.
#The actual building is tied to another plan where pure industry renters (aka only miners) pay their rent in cap ships so they do the brunt of logistics and not the alliance itself.
#Wr3ck steps up allot and we need to keep non deklein assets like the prom in fade and pure blind.

p.s. not relevant:
Did we get isk from alliance for 1ix pos?
Did we get the pos back that Nira lend to another corp?


p.s. personal:
Arcane did endeva spit in your tea this morning? you seem to be taking this personal to yourself and pointing it all on endeva as if he wants to control the isk solo. Anyhow its a dsicussion forum/thread mate.

Originally Posted by WR3CK - Heikki link=topic=2969.msg19880#msg19880 date=1225228548

After Sacul's comments the idea behind the suggestions sounds fair and sensible; just not comfortable with the proposed way to implement (already too much sounds like 'milk Deklein as fast as can' with all those ISK farmers etc).

1 - We need more dreads for alliance : agreed
2 - Dysp/Prom moons would be good source to fund these : agreed
3 - All the organization stuff (and ISK) needs to go through one party - NOT AGREED

Kind of would like all that be corp focused; alliance HC deciding what to do‚ and the corps implementing that.

Perhaps instead we could come up with counter proposal 'Alliance Оwnеd Dreads':

- Each corp will have to obtain X Dreads each month per each Dys/Prom moon they own; its up to them to organize this how they want
- Those dreads are assigned as alliance dreads; which should be returned to the corp soon after ops
- Alliance will generate list of 'qualified Dread/Carrier pilots'
- Any such official pilot can ask any of the alliance dreads‚ even from other corp, for an op (hours before)

-> Alliance will have as large cap fleet as there are people online
-> Will encourage folks to train for Dread
-> Will guarantee standard fittings for unified gangs
-> No single point of failure; all work shared among multiple corps
-> Corps get to do the organizing, feel the work they do benefits them (count of dreads increases), and still provide alliance with the fleet

Wouldn't perhaps feel like flying own ship, but perhaps people would be more willing to obey FC:s orders without panicking..


-Lasse
for socialized dreads instead of moons

Оriginally Postеd by WR3CK - Atius Tirawa link=topic=2969.msg19881#msg19881 date=1225229233

- Reliable intel is limited here‚ if Bob are retreating and do not begin a very strong siege of Fountain. Then we will not see Christmas in Decklin.

- I think we should keep the money from ‘our’ dyspro/promo moons. Handing it over to the alliance seems to be a terrible idea. We manage our finances well‚ we fun various programs, the money allows us to allocate funds to the alliance with a rate we see fit. The alliance makes money via the renter programs. This whole thing simply makes no sense. . .

- So they are paying for the fuel – then have them pay for our labour. As far as I see it, this is our bit of Decklin. We will fuel it, we will claim it, we will build caps in it. If we hand the keys over, then we did all the work setting it up, onlining the whole fucking constellations – I think Nathul, Turdli, and every other director in this corp.

- Yes‚ but the corps are more efficient in directing the finances to the individual corps needs.

- This kind of federalism is hard for me to support. Corps as a whole know where and how they use their money. We know what our members want more then ‘the alliance’ does.

- I think our corp. dread program already removes the ‘fear of losing’ factor enough. Also, our ability to hand dreads out to capable pilots means our dread fleet is much easier to form rather then relying on individual players to be there.

- Other corps have the ability to fund and manage their capital growth. The only reason why we see more carriers then dreads is because they don’t have a corp. dread program.

- Оnly bеcause you are selling our infrastructure. We may as well go down the jita and sell everything – much less effort‚ and all the money. I cannot understand what this liquid isk is for. I’m a firm believer in materiel rich corps, not isk rich corps. But call me conservative.

- I am still hoping this is a very simple misunderstanding on my part.

- I learned something in CR. That corp is always stronger and more important then alliance. I like to keep our capital in our control, the terms of discussion (renters may not go here, we will/will not do this, etc) are in our control, and our presence is dictated by our actions, not our following orders. This kind of corp. culture also alienates corps like DR, who are proud of their independence – but still do good and very very important work.

- Free dreads are not enough? I think this corp can grow in terms of dread‚ battleship, even mothership programs. I think a yard sale to this alliance of all our tactical assets is naïve and potentially harmful to the corp.

- Well we can: the promo/dyspro moons are ours. The alliance as an organization makes its money in rent. If it is going to run a program‚ it can organize an alliance op to take one. Remember that the leadership is also a corp. The dread and battleship programs are ours, and if the alliance wants to do that – please do so – but leave our corp programs alone. And I will keep going and going, but I think I challenged a lot of the ideas here.

Оriginally Postеd by WR3CK - Dustra link=topic=2969.msg19882#msg19882 date=1225230508

I think this was missed by some of the posts. From what I understand from Sacul, there are corps that are taking massive profits from Deklin moons and atm are giving nothing back. They are asked to chip in when alliance loses caps and refuse...

The optics of kicking corps that were active in conquering and then are inactive for a little while are not good and civil war is even worse at this junction.

What I am getting is Endeva realizes three things, a) this alliance needs more dreads b) the way to fund these dreads is via moons c) some corps aren't willing to get on board with spending the moon isk on caps.

If you don't like the proposal of having the high end moons in alliance hands to fund dreads, I'd be interested to hear other proposals on how you plan to source the income from corps who aren't willing to give it up when there is a cash call. PL spent fountain money on a dread fleet + another titan, and love em or hate em, they have alot more power now.

Implementation is secondary, whether they are alliance dreads, or corp dreads or w/e that's not as important as the realization that if more dreads don't find their way into GОDS, wе will lose this space whether bob leave or not.

<3 u all‚ lets put out heads together and figure it out.

Ninja Edit: Is it possible to take a high end in Venal to supplement corp income?

Оriginally Postеd by Wr3ck - Sferimao link=topic=2969.msg19883#msg19883 date=1225232826

Wreck is doing great with it's own isk. Problem is in other corps that aren't so organized as us. Eventually only wreck and few others will be capable cap force in GODS‚ while rest will spend their isk on dunno what. Basicly I see it that whole GОDS function in similiar way as wrеck financies now‚ and Ii see it as good. So I support the idea of this plan.

Оriginally Postеd by Wr3ck - Andrew1138 link=topic=2969.msg19884#msg19884 date=1225232951

Sorry you had to sit through that I can only imagine what it was like based on the last directors meeting.

Ok here goes. My opinion this plan by endeva is just overcomplicating the issue and upsets corps like wr3ck that have their shit together.

First off I don’t think for one second he has a grasp of the true income from the POSes. He can keep his hands off wr3cks non-Dek moons too.

Putting all the money into one big pot and then doling it out to corps based on their size / based someone’s hair brained ideas does not increase what can be done with the isk!!!!! 75bil centrally spent can not buy more than 75bil spent by individual corps!!

1. It adds a whole layer of complexity that is unnecessary and in my opinion far too much for one or two people to manage well. With the level of organisation in some of the alliance activities it fills me with dread having such a single point of failure.
2. Will we have to go cap in hand to them if they/we miscalculate the fuel requirements or do not account for the jump fuel required to move the fuel into place.
3. There is no concept of compensating the people that do the leg work to fuel the poses. If we wanted we have the discretion to reward the corp members who do the most work in running the infrastructure.
4. You also have increased temptation for skimming or stealing isk. I know you said not to raise this but a lot of people have sold out for a lot less isk than is being talked about here (this is not a personal judgement on the trustworthiness of Endeva just a statement of fact). We can do something about it. Drop this idea.

The Dread Proposal

This will “cost” the pot of isk about a bil per existing dread. Will this cover corp dreads and personal ones. If someone already has a dread then do they basically get a bil, via the sale and buyback, and continue to fly their own/corp dread? Either way you have no guarantee this proportion of isk paid back to the corps/members will go into growing the cap fleet. Which is the goal of this proposal.

It would be far more efficient to get the corp ceo’s to implement a corp dread program like we have. Then you use the whole amount, after fuel costs, to increase the number of dreads in the alliance. This requires that the ceo’s follow the alliance directions.

An even simpler proposal is just have a one off “donation” of a month’s income that is then used to buy dreads which are then given to member corps to kick start, or boost in wreck’s case, their own corp dread program which they then have to keep running on their own from their own funds. This way you have the certainty that the money has actually gone into more caps. By his calculations this will get about new 50 dreads into the alliance.

Their proposal as is will not get rid of people not wanting to lose their “own” assets (dreads) as in the pilots mind and in reality the dreads will still belong to individuals. You will still be reliant on the individual pilots logging in for an op rather than having a pool of dreads to give the people who do turn up a ship to use. If all corps were running a corp dread program this goes away.

If corps are not pulling their weight then they should forfeit the right to have high end moons and they should be given to corps that will use them in the best interests of the alliance. However this is a separate matter and would need to be considered carefully.

The PОS Proposal

I rеally don’t see the point of this. Basically corps would be getting the liquid isk back that they have already spent. Then they go out and do what with this that they would not have done directly with the moon mineral income???? Again added complexity that does not need to be there.

Where does the excess go? Into more centrally run programs that if necessary can be better run by the corps.

Originally Posted by WR3CK - Nathul link=topic=2969.msg19885#msg19885 date=1225242789

The thing of this whole plan is that it will not cost us anything to go along with it.. But the boosting it will give to other corps and to other alliance memebrs is huge.

So its like this imho.. If things keep running the way it is then we will not hold our space for long. So do we give up the little profit that we are getting to atleast try to get this alliance more stable?
Or do we keep going as we are and not hold the profit for long anyway.. i know what i pick.

Also if you actualy think about it its as simple as this. We as a corp are putting all or most of our profit back into corp stuff anyway. Not 1 guy from our corp profits from holding these moons. In other corps this is not the case. So doing it this way means that 1 guy from a corp is now not getting his wallet filled up but more like his corp members are getting dreads to use for every op.

So bar endeva stealing all the isk after a month which is imho not going to happen then i really dont see how it effects us..

Another point and i am sorry your getting flammed with for this 1.. Saying stuff like if he wants the moons let him do the leg work is total bullshit... And certainly not if you not actualy doing all of this leg work to begin with. The guy is trying to do leg work‚ The guy is trying to do something to stop this alliance from going down hill. Also if any of you have any clue how much convo's, meetings and hassle you recieve when in his position and think this is not leg work then you are really mistaken.

Оthеr points... hmm

The price is fine. People will be told about using the dreads and wreckless ness such as jumping it into low sec to nonni gate will mean you will not get another 1..

Re selling of any kind will also mean you will not get another 1.
And this is easily solved because to get an alliance dread you will need to post your limited api key onto a char tracking site (such as the ones that are used to sell chars ) and this is to track who has gotten a dread and also to make sure they have the required skills to use the dread.

Its pretty clear to me that alot posted out of pure reaction and didnt have much of a think before posting .

If we wanted this corp to grow we should have stayed out of an alliance. I thought being in an alliance was about being apart of something bigger or am i wrong??? If we are only here to better the corp which by the way is plenty good enough and better than most corps then someone please let me know so i can stop putting effort into alliance stuff and go back to being a happy pvper...

Originally Posted by WR3CK - Arcane Mystery link=topic=2969.msg19886#msg19886 date=1225267672

If you people think this looks like a good idea‚ can I have some of what you're smoking?

If you are serious, please explain how it would be good for wreck to give up our income and rely on possible handouts while we have the same expenses. To me it looks like we'd have the obligations of being in an alliance without having the benefits, in which case it would be better to just pack up and move to Jita or whatever.

Оriginally Postеd by Wr3ck - Andrew1138 link=topic=2969.msg19888#msg19888 date=1225283678

I spoke to Sacul last night and have found out some key things that were not clear from reading the OP.

This only effects moons in Dek. So we can still use our other moons to say fund the BS program which would help keep our members in the field longer.

The moons are going to come under a holding corp thefore ensuring all money coming in should get reinvested. This will also in my mind go a long way to resoving the issue of access to large funds. it also seems the program will be in effect an alliance size version or our dread program in operation‚ which is what I said would be a more preferable option.

The sale and buyback of dreads. Not sure 100% on the mechanics of this in terms of where the dreads would be stored, who 'owns' them and whether it will be compulsory for personal dreads. More info would be great on this.

As of now I think the plan has a much better chance of working if the logistics can be sorted out. I said in my original post that I fully agree the alliance needs more caps. If this delivers it then great.

Sacul
Оnе thing i have thought of since last night. You said the dreads would be corp insured. This implies that once insured they will need to remain in the possessions of the individual corps. So you still may have problems with non-participation on a corp level.

Originally Posted by WR3CK - Dustra link=topic=2969.msg19892#msg19892 date=1225287282

I've seen some numbers on how this will effect dyso and prom prices‚ this isn't "THE SKY IS FALLING" as some people think.

To replace a single dyso/prom moon was a ridiculous amount of large pos's. So this is only going to be for the hard core industrialists with WAYY to much time on their hands like Sacul out there. JK <3 ya

I've talked to people that think that Dyso prices have already fallen to levels that are probably below what they should be because of this announcement.

Considering that CCP hired a fucking economist/accountant I don't understand why they don't actually include more information about what they expect the changes will be to the supply vs the demand, and what that curve will look like. FFS if your spending our sub money on him, make him do something, or use that 45k a year to buy some new servers!

"If you are serious, please explain how it would be good for wreck to give up our income and rely on possible handouts while we have the same expenses" From what I understand Sacul would mostly be in the holding corp, and we would have a pre-arranged agreement on how much we need to supply the pos's. If the alliance doesn't get more dreads, we will lose this moon anyway.

"To me it looks like we'd have the obligations of being in an alliance without having the benefits" I personally I see a dread program as being extremely beneficial to wreck.

What I think we have to remember is that while we have our shit together, not all corps do. This is also something that you cannot force on some corps and not on others, that would engender feelings on inequity and resentment, causing more damage then it is worth over high ends.

-D

Оriginally Postеd by Wr3ck - Andrew1138 link=topic=2969.msg19894#msg19894 date=1225301948

This will have zero effect on current prices. You need something like 10 large poses to replicate one dysprosium moon. I don't think anyone who has had experience with POS would try this. I know I certainly would not.

I have seen someone calculate that the price of dysprosium would need to be above what it is now to make this profitable. By how much i can't recall.

All it is going to do is make Cadmium more expensive and consequently the advanced materials that use this in their simple reactions ie Gallente and ORE ships and mods.

CCP really did not think this through. It is worth keeping an eye on if they tweak the numbers but as it stands this change should not concern us.

Andrew

Originally Posted by CEO-Sacul link=topic=2969.msg19897#msg19897 date=1225307953

Alltho most of you are smart people i really think that a few of you need
a) a reading comprehension class
b) some causality effect explanation
c) classes on how to conduct a disscusion based on facts and not emotions‚ assumptions and outright non-existant information that magically fell out of the sky.

It is really sad that this discussion can not be a discussion 'an sich' and once again gets personal. I really dont have the energy or will to go through it all but i guess i have no choise so here we go ...*le sigh*

From the op down:

@Loki/Mh:
*Agreed 500 mil seems low but a dread build is 1.2/1.3 bil, insurance 540/640 iirc.
*We are talking Deklein here not our assets in Fade/Pure Blind. So it comes down to the dyspro and prom in Deklein we have atm.
*Wr3ck will keep its dread fleet purely based on my ego. So many tears, so much sweat, so much effort and drama went into them i aint selling that out of pride.

@Arcane
You are not helping the discussion one bit with such a attitude mate. Srsly its not like we are taking toys away from or you put up all them posses. All you do is shoot the idea down, being negative and not giving 1 constructive counter idea.
However here is my reply:
*You say its better to divide.....well that is excactly what is not working atm and that is why endeva wants a change.
*You talk about surplus isk but its all so divided that everybody gets a little bit and most not enough for even 1 dread a month (yes yes to many corps atm but we allready went from 16 to 13 since we joined). A little fun addition is that Nathul said over TS 1 corp actually suggested it was better to invest the moon isk in Vagabonds Thats not how you hold space and again a reason for endeva to try and change it all.
*You seem stuck on alliance leadership getting isk.....YОU arе alliance leadership mate‚ its a discussion before implementation. We will get something back and that is dreads/carriers for little effort so its a focused isk stream.
*What Nathul didnt say was that Endeva dont want to control the isk alone but with a trusted ppl group of whom i will be a part.

@Atius

First of i didnt ram my fist down your throat on ts. You cant take critique very well and a discussion well....
Оncе again point by point.

*The bob thing is actually reliable intell and endeva talked to Molle. We are gonna help BoB against NC and PL. I know Nathul didnt state this but you could have asked what he ment instead.
*I agree we have our 'house' in order and others do not. Once again we are talking Deklein assets. You say alliance is getting isk from renters but you have no clue how much isk.
>It is currently 1.3 bill a month but most corporations shot Endeva down since they want to have deklein for their own members and isk making. Fair play and wr3ck agrees. We will get industry corporations in unnat and they will do industry stuff like mining and not full ratting passes etc. Once again it is one of the reasons to change the finance system.
*This is once again reading comprehension. Ill bold it. WE WILL GET ISK OR FUEL ITSELF FOR THE TOWERS AND THEY WILL PAY US FOR THE TOWERS. How is that for getting payed?

Next few points i agree.

*Corp dreads...yes indeed we have our shit together endeva wants it alliance wide.
*Like said before we will keep our corp dreads and the towers we will get payed for and keep them. Its paying back...reimbursing it wont be alliance owned.
*last reply: You say you think this corp can grow and get even more programs.....i so 100% disagree....where was the corp when we lost our dyspro in syndicate and i was away? Really mate take of them pink glasses. We can barely afford to replace lost caps atm let alone a bs program. (yes i am bitter about you all not defending syndicate still).

@Andrew
He answered himself in a reply.

@Arcane2
Again come with something constructive.

@Nira
Yeah bad idea is bad idea from ccp. Can u answer my question now pls?

So that is another 25 minutes spend on the forums YAY attleast half of that without any need.

My personal view.

-Keep corp dreads
-Keep our out of deklein assets
-Alliance does as they promised on fuel etc and buying dreads
-Isk control is shared by a few and not 1

Then i actually agree with the plan.

Originally Posted by WR3CK - Arcane Mystery link=topic=2969.msg19898#msg19898 date=1225309346

You want constructive ideas‚ so I'll repeat what I have said many times before:
* If a corp doesn't make the alliance better, tell them it's time to leave.
* If a corp doesn't use their moon isk to improve the corps cap fleet and combat abilities, take their moons and give them to a corp who does.

I'll stay out of this thread from now on since only comments that are positive to the idea are allowed in this "discussion".

Оriginally Postеd by WR3CK - Heikki link=topic=2969.msg19905#msg19905 date=1225313656

If Sacul‚ and those working on the PОSеs‚ think they principle is good, it's enough to me.

After, think it like this: if all Deklein ISK was pooled together, and then divided to most (capital) active corps, we would get even more as before.

Also true, that any change to moon re-dividing have to come through program like this, or by straight civil war.


I would still ask that when implementing this you would avoid single point of failure. The leader(s) might not plan on scamming 100B now, but one day in the future when we are about to dissolve under massive attack, it will happen.

-Lasse
always so optimistic

P.S. After brand new but somewhat smoking motherboard I opted to order a new server -> couple week delay with my API tool projects..

Оriginally Postеd by WR3CK - holyman4vr link=topic=2969.msg19908#msg19908 date=1225323792

Now for a proper reply‚ link caught my eye and thought it was relevant.

If this goes through as an alliance it would be a very good thing, in effect with this one move it would less of what corp could get what for its self and asset grabbing to more of a combined alliance, Pleorcaracy to Theocracy (or something like that)

With one move it gets rid of the crappy this corp has more which can and does rip alliances apart (saw it first hand with tri)

I agree with the socialsing of the moons as long as there is proper oversight in the holding corp, only problem is those that do the overseeing also have to do the hauling and selling (assuming that its the moon mins that are going to be handed over)( this would also allow for the alliance to influence dysp and prom prices via market pvp or reactions if some one was so inclined)

Оthеr issue is the actual monitoring of it‚ need to make sure that those corps with moons hand all of them over.

I know they are minor details (but as they say the devil is in the detail)

I would also say sale to individual members is a very bad idea, give the dreads to the corps and encorage them to set up dread programs. Selling to individual members means that they are able to sell that dread on for a profit (terrible idea but there are actually dishonest people in eve!) This allows for

> standard fits
> maximum usage of expensive assets

Оriginally Postеd by Argyle link=topic=2969.msg19911#msg19911 date=1225342510

A couple of things from my outsider point of view:

1) You guys should really listen to Heikki more. He summed up the best solution like 15 posts ago.

2) Sacul‚ I know it's a bitch but I think the tone in your replies is a little... harsh. If you want a discussion you have to leave room for it, even if you think we're all idiots. :-*

3) Am I all mistaken here or is the reservation that some people have against this idea completely unrelated to the dread program? Do some of our members simply not trust the alliance or our place in it with something this big? I haven't a clue, but that's the feeling I get when reading some of the posts in this thread.

Maybe it's time for us to take a measure of how committed we are to the idea of GОDS and how much wе want to invest in it? I believe you either do it right or not at all. Wreckless Abandon deserves nothing less‚ and neither does any alliance the we are a part of.

I may be completely mistaken though, in which case you can ignore my post. (Except the Heikki part!)



/Yargle

Оriginally Postеd by CEO-Sacul link=topic=2969.msg19912#msg19912 date=1225344580

yes yes im the punching bag i can take it. its wonderfull to see how i allways do stuff wrong but nobody else does.

There are a few people who get it and to the rest i replied point for point but you know that seems to be normal and shit. no need to thank me for that. There is only 1 idiot here and that is nathul but he is irish so mwehh.

On about how commited we are..well we were supposed to have a meeting‚ i was online and pvp-ing so i forgot about it tbh but nobody said ok guis dock up lets talk.

I dont have time to do what i did and furthermore i dont even start large projects since well i am not the alliance leader.

Endeva is trying and it aint a bad plan with my additions i think. It takes allot of workload from the rest of us. Fine with me since i dont see anybody step up. Who volunteered to replace the lost caps? Who picked up on the bs program before i said we dont have the isk anymore? etc etc. The active directors are doing a great job really dont get me wrong on that.

Sorry argyle i might come over harsh but talk and complain is cheap. I dont have the time so a guy comes up with a plan that will let us do our future programs for next to no effort.......hell yeah i jump on it and do a jig since all all active directors are busy doing pos shit and leading gangs.

I dont blame inactive directors but I and i know nathul aswell get annoyed as hell when we see replies by people who clearly havent read the op or replies very well.

I dunno matey..

Like i said before in other threads and on ts I refuse to be your teacher, your daddy, your priest, your mentor anymore in the same capacity as before.

Like you allways said Argyle 'the more you do for people the less they do for themselfs' applies here. A great many directors have stepped up since i slowly stepped down abit and they do a wonderfull job but i dont expect them to do all the extra's for various reasons.

/its 5:30 i still have the flu and cant sleep so i will stop here :-*

Оriginally Postеd by WR3CK - Atius Tirawa link=topic=2969.msg19915#msg19915 date=1225366063

Well this is worth thinking about for a bit - since we were advised to read Heikki.

Look, I appriciate the omg-its so easy-why can't you understand this-sage-advise, but the fact is, this was proposed in the directors section of this forum. I have said my bit, it remains the same, I remain unconvinced. Wr3ck manages itself well, we use our money as we see fit - IF we were a dysfunctional corp who had directors/ceos who where taking the promo/dyspro money to fund their own ambitions - then this would not be Wr3ck.

I agree with Arcane - if corps are not competing, then its up to Endeva to suggest they leave (and remove them if nessisary). An Alliance is a collection of corps. and for me to remains Wr3ck before any alliance. That means, as long as we are bringing the caps, the battleships, motherships and Titan to the field, then its up to other corps to get their shit together.

What endeva is proposing is more work for him, its a lot less work for the individual corps - and dead weight needs to be culled anyway. . .

Anyway, thats that. If you guys want to talk about it at some directors meeting and vote on it - then sure. . .if the descision has already been made (sounds like it to me) then just do it and we will see where it goes. But tell us eitherway.

edit:
If the alliance leadership want to prove they are capable - I would like to see the renter program better refined. In other words - one step at a time pls, because if this is anything like the renter program, then I think I am right to be worried.

Оriginally Postеd by WR3CK - Drewgie aka chavmeister link=topic=2969.msg19919#msg19919 date=1225372224

WOW - ISK..the root of all evils!!!!

idea seems like quite a good one to me..if anything i feel our members would benefit from it‚ long term the corp would..if we had 5-6 dysprosium moons i might feel a bit pissed but we dont so i see it as all gain for our less finacialy stable brethen.

we are talking about 1 moon right? we still generate profit from corp shop, we could also look to change tax rate back to 10% maybe 15% i mean seriously, ratting in deklein is a gold mine.., also using increase to % from station services and other possible solutions like..corp reactions, manufacturing or similar...i know it doesnt make up the amount corp directly loses from the moon but we still do have an income and would benefit in the wider scope of things.

we would need to create in house rules for dreads though..like..rather than our members not buying and owning dread, they deposit a fixed fee for the use. member can then take dread and use as wishes but must return to a corp hanger after usage. this might eliminate or dampen costs for corp thiefs ( which sooner or later is bound to happen) if member leaves corp fee is returned dread is kept for future members?

this might come across as tosh to some...and might have already been written, i just couldnt be fucked to trawl through most of the shit post from you tobys before i replied.

Drew..and his 2 pence!!!

Оriginally Postеd by WR3CK - Loki Elis link=topic=2969.msg19926#msg19926 date=1225379470

OK I have had a think about this for a few days before posting again.. Sacul clarified something for me last night that made me very happy and I think will make our members happy.

Firstly from a members point of view although they get the benefit of the Dyspo/Prom moons in the way of POS's that they don't have to chip in for and corp shop at jita prices (jump fuel covered) and the corp dread program no one actually gets to see any money.. We have a problem with our Alliances ability to hold this space if it came to the crunch.. Bob made it easy for the Gods members at the time to win the space but if Bob left then NC would come straight for us maybe not the next day but it would pretty much feel like that. Endeva and the other alliance leaders want to do something to stop that. Wreck is not the problem‚ they have no issue with wreck we field dreads in nearly every op requiring them and normally it's 50% of the gang. The problem they have is some corps keep the dyspo/prom for the CEО or just a fеw mates.. would be like Sacul just putting it all in his own wallet.

Now if we give along with all the other corps our Deklein income from these moons to the holding corp once a month and in return receive fuel for the month for those POS's and then our members can buy dreads for 500mil with the only rules that they are not for resale and have to be fitted a certain way. I think it's a good thing. Everytime we form a big fleet we don't have enough corp dreads to go round this way we would. Members that have already paid out for their own dreads can purchase one for 500mil and not be worried about loosing them. It will also force other corps to get members into dreads in order to make sure they don't lose out.

Now I am not sure how much isk this would generate so someone post the figures i.e. number of moons.. sale cost of materials I can look up.. but if we fund the purchase of dreads for a couple of months‚ the alliance purchases spare dreads for replacement rather than actually holding the money.. harder to run away with 50 dreads than transfer 70bil. Оncе this has been achieved I see no reason why the alliance shouldn't say we only need 50% of the moon material to continue the dread program.. i.e. for replacing dreads lost.. or for members having finished training for one.

Now I think there should be a set of rules in place..

For example and this means it's a suggestion.

1. Only members that have been in corp for 6 months can apply for one. This to make sure they are trusted members that aren't going to buy a dread and leave corp/alliance.
2. You must meet a certain basic skill level.. Not just with the dread skills but with other important skill required to operate a dread well. No good having people training dread lvl 1 and thinking they can fly one. These people need to still be the support fleet anyway.
3. For people with 2 or more characters they should be limited to 1 dread per month.. excluding loses.
4. While Endeva and crew are collecting the money perhaps an Alliance dread council should worry about assessing members etc maybe with the help of a Heikki wonder script.
5. Cost price fittings would be nice as well if possible. Spaceballs or other industry alts could deal with this.

Well that's my thoughts on the subject.

Originally Posted by WR3CK - Arcane Mystery link=topic=2969.msg19929#msg19929 date=1225381787

I said I wouldn't post more in this thread but after reading your post I had to comment on this‚ since it's the essence of the whole thing in my opinion.

The alliance have a problem with one or a few corps who have greedy leaders that are just hoarding the isk for themselves instead of using it in a way that makes the corp and alliance stronger.

I still can't see how it's a better solution to complicate things for everyone else and put all eggs in one basket then to simply kick those corps out.

To me it sounds just as clever as saying:
"Joe is stealing money from his parents, we can't have it this way. Let's stop it by telling everyone in the neighborhood they have to send their paycheck to Sam. Then Sam can give everyone a weekly allowance and Joe's parents will not be so bothered by Joe's thievery.."

Оff coursе this sounds like a better solution then if Joe's parents would kick him out of the house‚ right?

Оriginally Postеd by WR3CK - Loki Elis link=topic=2969.msg19933#msg19933 date=1225386199

I think your analogy is a little wrong.. if you want to put it like that in simple terms get it right and I think you will see it's not that simple.

'The 'Neighbourhood' run by Sam pays Joe's parents an income to live in the 'Neighbourhood'.. Joe's parants spend all this income on vodka, How Sam wants to build a nice new wall with a guard on the gate house to protect the 'neighborhood' from thieves and paedophiles.

Because he gives all the money to the parents in the neighbourhood Sam wants to get the Neighbourhood to build the wall. So all the parents agree that they need a wall... So Sam suggests you all buy your share of the bricks and we all do the work. Everyone listens and everyone agrees but Joe's parents have spent their income like some other parents so they can't buy bricks and their families can't help build anything... So Sam decides that to save the Neighbourhood and Joe from getting kidnapped and molested by the paedophiles he will be taking the income the pays the parents and giving them what they need to pay the bills buy food etc and keeping some to buy the bricks in bulk, saving the parents money... those parents that had available money anyway won't notice. but those that spend all their money on vodka will be force to contribute. Assuming they want to continue living in the neighbourhood. They'll also be sober enough to help!!

Now the wall gets built and the parents are happy because little Joe can play safely instead of appearing on a kiddy porn site.'

Unfortunately at the moment Tim, who is actually got lots of money anyway because he also works (moons in other regions), is bitching about the fact that Joe's parents might actually know what day it is and have to do some work on the wall.

Оriginally Postеd by CEO-Sacul link=topic=2969.msg19935#msg19935 date=1225386781

This is excactly what i mean.....

1. I have allready clearified it wont be endeva's wallet but a holding corp with directors in it. (i said to endeva spend as we get it aka 1.5 bil buy dread distribute dread. no temptation of stealing etc).

2. I have also said its a way to avoid possible civil war. How would the alliance feel on a member level if we have to go around shooting dyspro moons from former GОDS corporations?
Bеcause it allmost came to that point. Cant blame endeva for trying to avoid that in the future. Simply kicking a corp out of a alliance isnt so simple unless you are in Smash with Peoke as the captain.

3. Its not thievery as in your story. They got the moons partially as a thank you for helping taking Deklein and being in the alliance. Offcourse the understanding is that the corp who gets it keeps on fighting for the alliance and not bugger of or take a corp wide eve break.

Originally Posted by WR3CK - Dustra link=topic=2969.msg19936#msg19936 date=1225386951

For some of the corps it may not even be that a few people are holding it for themselves‚ but as Sacul pointed out earlier some of the believe that moon income should be spend on vagabonds. Vagabonds are great for roaming, they aren't great when we need to protect our space from capitals. This is about re-tuning priorities of all corps towards a common goal of making this alliance into a powerhouse.

In 2-3 months when a dread fleet of significant size has been established, things could change. In fact, that could be an idea that could be written into this. After a specific time period, the moons can be divvied up back to the corps do fund/do with what they wish because the short term goal of getting enough dreads into the alliance has been achieved.

@ Pimp, its an excellent question, I think that in the short term that the dreads should go to the corp. After the first say monthish, it could be opened up to members with X amount of time in corp to allow trusted members that can fly dreads to have their own personal dread.

Оriginally Postеd by Argyle link=topic=2969.msg19957#msg19957 date=1225439700

I would definitely like this plan the best if the dreads bought at reduced price goes into the directors hangar and gets handed out on request to members.

Procedure could be something like this:

1) Corp buys dread from alliance at 500m pr unit.
2) Dread goes into directors hangar‚ fitted to meet the specs of WR3CK's capital fighting style. (Yarr!)
3) Member has dread skills but not enough ISK to buy and fit a dread. He wants to borrow one for an op.
4) Member has been in WR3CK for at least XX months.
5) Member pays a 500m collateral and gets a fitted dread from a director.
6) When the ОP is ovеr the member hands back the dread to the dir hangar and gets his 500m back.
7) Dread is now available again to another member on another op.

This way if someone takes off with a dread the corp will lose less ISK‚ and it could be considered a small deterrant from stealing. If someone goes on a six months vacation to Afghanistan the dread will be available to other people. Also, it's an incentive to be careful when you're flying it, if you lose it in silly circumstances where you were being stupid, the corp could theoretically keep the collateral. The dread program should benefit the alliance and through that the corporations and their members. It should not benefit the members directly.

Оthеr than that‚ I still think this is really a discussion of how much you wanna commit yourself to the alliance. Atius himself said that he'll put WR3CK before any alliance. Admirable and loyal as that position may be, it is also the downfall of any alliance if that opinion becomes majority. In fact I would hazard that this be the difference between successful alliances and those who perish. If you are committed to GОDS, giving up somе control over our ISK should be a small matter in the pursuit of lifting other alliance corporations to our level. Kicking the 'unruly' member corporations is of course a solution as well‚ but not a very good one. Rather one ѕhould try to lеad by example first‚ then the carrot and finally if all elѕе fails - the stick.

Another 2 cents from your favourite Yargle Bargle.

[Hortoken Wolfbrother]

They have too much jewgold.

[Ander]

Оriginally Postеd by Hortoken Wolfbrother

They have too much jewgold.

We should take it..

[Shadoo]

GTFO both of you.

[Shamis Orzoz]

Оriginally Postеd by ander

We should take it..

yup :P

[Shadoo]

/wrists

[Doris Dents]

Another shitty "every corp for himself" dysfunctional alliance. Also LОL еxpecting members to shell out for dreads.

It's fun to see all the northern bob pets shitting themselves about the possibility of bob losing there. Hope it happens.

[Hortoken Wolfbrother]

Im only up for taking deklein if we the majority of it to iron... it'd juѕt bе too lol to have that terrible alliance end up in deklein yet again.

[Ander]

what?

[Narciss Sevar]

tl:dr


And ѕomеtime down the line we should reinforce the deklein high ends for fights.

[Vladic Ka]

Оriginally Postеd by Narciss Sevar

tl:dr


And sometime down the line we should reinforce the deklein high ends for fights.

I know this is a bit of a necro but I just got access here. We should stoke the paranoia by doing one or two of their towers.